Jul 04, 2013 8:03 PM

So! Let's get started!

First we need to review a few things about commerce.

PAYMENT is actually ILLEGAL. Derek Moran masturbates to "Clubhouse Rules" and will gladly give details on that. ;) Spoiler Alert: LEGAL MONEY is Illegal too, and has been since 1933.

REMITTANCE - Advice to a SECURED PARTY on how to DISCHARGE the debt.

DISCHARGE - to "zero-out" a balance of an item on an account.

NOTARY - WITNESS for the PUBLIC RECORD. If you do business across provincial boundaries, you are a Notary. You do not need "permission". You simply have to give NOTICE.

CONTRACT - LAW. If it is written, it is LAW.

Questions?

..actually i tend to masturbate when i go to bed, as it tends to help me fall asleep better - tonight i will be thinking about Maria Ortiz :) :)

You view more case-law than porn. That should be a warning sign. :D

..and i spend more time on The Tender For Law- and THAT, IS a warning-sign

Signed, Dungeons-n-Dragons

Spending time on THE TENDER FOR LAW, is ok. Don't worry about that. That's a GOOD use of time :D

So... No questions so far. Good.

NOW, let's look at "Financial Instrument".

Everyone reach into their asses and pull out what you think is a "financial instrument", to clear all these misconceptions up.

It's important to kill all these concepts at the root.

WHAT IS A FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT?

Go! :D

Interestingly, there is no definition for FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT in Black's 9th...

There is this, however...

INSTRUMENT:

2. Commercial law. An unconditional promise or order to pay a fixed amount of money, with or without interest or other fixed charges described in the promise or order. - Under the UCC, a promise or order must meet several other specifically listed requirements to qualify as an instrument. UCC § 3-104(a). See NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENT. 3. A means by which something is achieved, performed, or furthered <an instrument of social equality>

FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT: A document with monetary value and is legally enforceable.It can be a check, bill, bond, or contract that two parties or more agree to the payment of.(Black's 1st ed)

I could find "finances" in bouvier's and got; by this word is understood the revenue or public resources or money of the state. Etymology tho indicates it to mean an end, settlement, or retribution. Interesting

INSTRUMENT, contracts. The writing which contains some agreement, and is so called because it has been prepared as a memorial of what has taken place or been agreed upon. The agreement and the instrument in which it is contained are very different things, the latter being only evidence of the existence of the former. The instrument or form of the contract may be valid, but the contract itself may be void on account of fraud. Vide Ayl. Parerg. 305; Dunl. Ad. Pr. 220.

Instrument etymology simply says tool or device

so can we say it is a way to exchange value?

One could then put the two together for a simple definition of ; Tool of retribution or settlement device?

Is not a FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT ultimately a RECORD of SURETY?

David Gyurkovics was closest. :D

It is a RECORD of the transfer of VALUE. This is what provides PROOF of the transfer.

That sounds familiar...

Were we not talking about transfer of VALUE as the cargo on the vessel?

Yes Chad Brodgesell, it is ALSO a record of surety. I don't want you to think you were wrong. . It is a self-evident byproduct of the record.

Byproduct? Would not the SURETY need to exist PRIOR to a FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT being written (agreed upon)? Eh, seems to me the SURETY is *the OTHER half of the VALUE* or am I out to lunch? I see the SURETY moving in the opposite direction of the value being exchanged.

It's a record of BOTH. It always is. It is PROOF of UNDERSTANDING.

A $20 Dollar Bill has 2 signatures, and NONE of them are yours. You are only the BENEFICIARY. You can never seek remedy from the dudes that signed the $20 bill, because they have no contract with you.

You CAN get remedy from the trustee. It says so on the instrument.

Definition of 'Financial Instrument' A real or virtual document representing a legal agreement involving some sort of monetary value. In today's financial marketplace, financial instruments can be classified generally as equity based, representing ownership of the asset, or debt based, representing a loan made by an investor to the owner of the asset. Foreign exchange instruments comprise a third, unique type of instrument. Different subcategories of each instrument type exist, such as preferred share equity and common share equity, for example. Investopedia Says Investopedia explains 'Financial Instrument' Financial instruments can be thought of as easily tradeable packages of capital, each having their own unique characteristics and structure. The wide array of financial instruments in today's marketplace allows for the efficient flow of capital amongst the world's investors.

Okay, I see my mistake while reading the SURETY thread. The SURETY like the VALUE only exists to the PARTIES yet others NOT OF the FINANCIAL INSTRUMENT may benefit.

Financial instrument only creates money of account which you exchange for money of exchange you sign that money into existance as surety for it and someone thats not you gets paid with interest added?

Hmmmm.....fuck...challenging always in this group & it's awesome to see everyone rising to it too.

The past 2 weeks have been the best!

Fuck yes Chad. I couldn't agree more so. Even with a broken leg I've never felt more alive or excited & that's because the dynamics of this group is constantly changing & evolving.

Oh btw Chad B. I know ye probably want to break my leg too because of my mouth but believe me when I state this but I AM on your team. Ok?? Yes I do give you value just like everyone else.

Something with money attached to it that I can use, like a guitar or a piano or a flute.... :-D , oh no sorry that would be a MUSICAL instrument, not a FINANCIAL one...

Yeh I got one of those Peter baby....it's called my flesh trombone....

THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE

BAM!!! REMEDY BITCHES!!!!!!

Scott Duncan: A $20 Dollar Bill has 2 signatures, and NONE of them are yours. You are only the BENEFICIARY. You can never seek remedy from the dudes that signed the $20 bill, because they have no contract with you.

You CAN get remedy from the trustee. It says so on the instrument.

..does it say you CAN get remedy from the trustee on the BIRTH CERTIFICATE somehow also, Scott?

No, because here in reality, the trustee is also your rapist.

Even the Lieutenant-Governor David Onley is one of my rapists too...? :`(

No womder why I have an apple tree growing in my ass :-(

I have a question...

Is it possible to find the EXACT date and time when the PERSON has been created ?

Hellos ? ....please if you know, I need ti know...

I got it......it's on the act of birth, I know PIERRE DAOUST's birth date :P

So the act of Birth IS the deal ?

A little bit as an Act of Sales regarding a house ?

No. MISTER ONLEY is the dressing they put on the rapist so you think he's a "nice guy" before he rapes you. :P

So when someone ask for the person I happen to have in my pocket is BIRTH date, I can't give MINE, it would be a mistake, I have to give its REAL birth date, which is the one on the Act of Birth ? :-\

"MISTER ONLEY" - lol.....is that the way i should address him too if i ever send him an email? ;)

Lt. Gov. Mr. Onley You arn't qualified to be askin.

I did an administrative process on a credit company in regard to retrieval of the title/original promissory note/loan contract for a friend. They had paid off the loan but the credit company was trying to lay a Lot of bogus fees on at the end. So I simply informed them that to our knowledge the loan was discharged and the original title/note was to be returned in 10 days or a cheque to the same value. They dropped the extra charges (which was all my friend was concerned about) immediately and sent a clever colour photo copy of the loan contract with settled written by hand with a thick black board marker across it. I sent two more notices which completed the process with a default and consent to summary judgement. That has long since matured into a security for such a time as my friend feels confident enough to collect or sell it:)

In the example from ChiefRock Sino General above, Is there a limit on how long someone can wait before seeking the return of the original instrument?

Not really. They don't have the right to destroy it. They will claim to have LOST it; At which point you can invoice them for the balance, to replace it.

It doesn't really matter WHEN you do it.

Thank-you

Scott, what do you mean regarding "if you do business across provincial boundaries"? What kind of business exactly?

Will Bed ..... :)

i have a question..anyone of you had success getting those promissory note back? my guess is no. if they don't abide by the law themselves i can't see any remedy being granted.

Then you would move towards getting a lien wouldn't you?

you already paid the loan...

Ok Alexandre Boutet, If you have completed all of your obligations, the original note is your property isn't it?

Example, You borrow 1000 from me, and agree to pay it back over time... I have you sign a promissory note when I loan you the money. After you've completed your end of the deal, You ask me for the original note back. I would give it to you. Done, the end.

In the case of a bank, the note gets sold. So they "can't find it" or whatever... But it is still your property and you want it back right? So if it was worth whatever the loan was originally, I would guess that it still is worth that. At least to you it is...

So, give them the bill for it.... :)

I had a look the other day on the credit reporting website for the person I have, and there are LOTS of those notes out there that never got returned....

It looks like I have some letters to write.

Alexandre Boutet, the General Director of the bank just sent the PERSON I have an invitation to come pick up the ORIGINAL promissory note... We'll see how things unfold, I'll try to update tomorrow...

I wonder if it will be in it's original form though?

That's EXACTLY why I'm hoping to get some clues from Scott Duncan ;)

Yeah, Scott Duncan, give some "clues" to Will Bed, please :D

Tell Will Bed what LIES he will face, tomorrow :D

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

Hey, I might be wrong.... :P

If it has been "damaged" or modified in some way, would that justify billing them for a replacement?

We can set up a skype call if you like.

I think I might catch you up on this offer, Admiral ! But wouldn't it be a good idea, if you have the time, to discuss this in a TT4L tread ??

Probably an ORIGINAL COPY.

Adrian Thomson i totally agree with you. i'm skeptical that any banks will comply with your demands

Scott Duncan offered to skype with you about it, Will Bed, I would accept the offer, if I was you. :P

Is the original Promissory Note a PRIVATE document, brought into the PUBLIC through the bank's lawyer, then sent by him to the TRUSTEE (Bank of Canada)?

Typing is tedious. Record the call and post it.

awesome Will Bed i can't wait to know how it unfolded

And Scott do not really skype often with Quebecois, he usually use Quebecois for some very specific duties, like wearing some heavy vest of some types....

You are PRIVILEGE, Will Bed :D

We should set up a group chat.

good idea

Schedule it for later tonight so word has a chance to get around :D

:D

I have yet to get home too... Who would join in ? Should we move the discussion over to the thread i just posted ??

Better than us calling individually at weird hours? :D

:D

Skype, how does that thing work ? :D

most likely this promissory note will have a shit load of stamps and signatures on it

In think I have to purchase some more minutes...

Purchasing minutes ?? ?

Oh right, that is for calling a phone...

What if RBC was the original instrument holder and you have recently switched to a mortgage company with lower rates. Would the original be discharged by the new mortgage, would RBC be required to return the original. I ask not for myself but "every one" who has refinanced any debt, line of credit and or death pledge

David Vilaca, that original mortgage is discharged and a new one is created right? So if you've switched to a 3rd mortgage company there should be 2 notes to go and get, the 3rd one still being held by the current company...

Whoa, group call? Word has gotten to me, how do I listen in?

. . . . . This has already been informative & enlightening. I'm grateful to be looking and listening in on these nuts-and-bolts progressions of ideas & innovations !

Skype ID is: AQUILAE.LAB I'll add you as the calls come in

I just requested as a contact in Skype, to AQUILAE.LAB.

Everyone's adding their ID's in the next post

Steven, get a skype ID

Where's ChiefRock?

. . . Is there here a consenses on a time for Skype?

. . . I learned a lot about how much I don't understand ! Bravo to all who were on board for the discussion.

GO will bed GO !

I was part of the chat last night. It was awesome and informative. I had an RBC MORTGAGE and transferred it to a credit union. If I REQUIRE RBC to return my property is there any reason why it doesn't exist? As stated above the credit union created a new mortgage is that correct? If this is the case I will be sending a registered letter REQUIRE that promissory note be returned

Why? You got a THIRD PARTY to discharge it. It belongs to the CREDIT UNION, not you. THEY BOUGHT IT.

Mental adjustment made.

oh the things you learn in the middle of the night. new merchant princes on the rise, how the blockchain will eventualy lead to the identity of Satoshi, what hashing is really doing and.... I'm a pussy dumb fuck who still has it all wrong. :P

http://youtu.be/DZCm2QQZVYk

Some of you have forgotten this one.

that guy

After 7 hours and 40 minutes, I fell a sleep. Was a good listen though. Go get em, Will Bed.

The sad part: You got about 1/3rd of everything I said :P

I recently asked my bank manager similar questions in letter form, and after a few weeks, I just received a package containing a "Resolving Customer Complaints" pamphlet, and a copy of my basic mortgage documents that I already have. She didn't answer one question, or provide me any of the original documentation I asked for. I guess I need to move up the food chain a bit.....

or send a bill Brad No , Perhps that will get their attention?

Maybe one more letter questioning her management abilities, with simpler grammar, more to the point.... Then I'll read more, and learn how to possibly send a bill etc.

Early in the game for me still, but moving ahead!

They have something that belongs to you, Brad No.

You REQUIRE them to give it back to you.

They do not give it back.

You send them an invoice for the value of the thing.

Very simple stuff... :)

If you read your original paperwork, it often lays out what the bank considers to be acceptable communication. For the mortgage I had, they had the head office listed and all communications were to be in writing and registered mail. If that is the case, then me talking to a teller is a waste isn't it? Perhaps you have some similar instructions in your documents?

Thanks. The bank manager doesn't have a CLUE, so it's a waste of time dealing with her. All people at BMO I've talked with, and Land Titles staff have told me there isn't such thing as a deed anymore, and it's done all electronically. Perhaps that's what they "believe" I payed Land titles for what I thought was a certified copy of my land title, and after not receiving that, by phone he told me his "word" was all the proof I needed, and sent me an email copy that's very vague on info.

Land title and the original note for the loan are two totally different things

I realize that, but they basically told me they send the electronic version of the deed to land titles, which allows them to remove the banks name off of the title

I asked her for the wet ink signature note I signed when I applied for the mortgage. She had no clue what I meant.

Sorry for the hijack!

Hijacking a year-old zombie thread, isn't really a big deal :D

The bank manager doesn't have a CLUE, so it's a waste of time dealing with her....

Who said you need nto DEAL with an incompetent ? :/